30 Over 30: Part 3

To mark mica – music austria’s 30th anniversary, we asked 30 artists over 30 years of age how their music, perspectives, and the music industry at large have evolved (or not) over the years and through changing times. In a culture and industry often driven by novelty, we wanted to take this opportunity to focus on equally important aspects of the music branch, such as knowledge, experience, and hard-earned wisdom. For part 3 of the series, we asked KATHARINA KLEMENT, OLIVER JOHNSON (a.k.a. DORIAN CONCEPT), VIOLA FALB, OMID DARVISH and PAMELIA STICKNEY questions about their work and lives as musicians, their outlooks on the industry and culture, and what advice they have for the younger generation.

How has your experience in the music industry evolved as you’ve aged?

Katharina Klement: The experiences match those in my daily life: as an aging woman, you’re seen as less attractive and perceived more peripherally. (That’s a clearly female issue; older men, with their social capital, are anchored very differently in society. You see it all the time: older men have little trouble finding a younger female partner and being seen as attractive; when the roles are reversed, the relationship is completely different.)

It’s become more and more important not just to make good music, but to look good and above all have the right PR to package and market that external image.

Oliver Johnson: Two things: first; I’ve gotten more experienced – the old saying that experience is the best teacher is true. You learn to stand up for yourself and your art, as well as your own limitations: what you’re willing or able to do, and at what price. Those are definitely good things, in my opinion. On the other hand, we’re living in times that require more of us than 15 years ago – and I feel like the tempo of our time right now is in a race against my biological clock. That makes it tricky, but in general I’m managing to find some serenity. I notice it at live performances: I’m less nervous; I can enjoy it. It’s something I built for myself, something that comes from inside. Simply put: a certain maturity has set in.

“You learn to stand up for yourself and your art, as well as your own limitations” – Oliver Johnson

Viola Falb: Naturally, because my life has changed. I have two children now, and the younger – she’s almost two – has never been taken care of by anyone else. That means all of the time that I don’t organize a babysitter and go to work, she’s with me – I can’t really practice; there’s only time to take care of the most important organizational necessities;  I compose late into the night and hope she doesn’t wake up too early. So, it’s difficult for me to say if the music business has changed: my pressure to advance in the business has essentially disappeared, because of the time constraints.

Have you observed changes in the way the industry treats artists based on their age?

Katharina Klement: Yes and no. It’s as much an issue with female performers as with female composers. Event organizers like booking young talent; it makes them look good. It’s also understandable to an extent, giving younger people and newcomers a chance. They may also be cheaper; I’ve never investigated that.

But it’s also a fact that established composers (I see it primarily with my male peers) get invited to the same festival multiple times; that organizers like to book a “sure thing” and that one commission leads to the next.

In the free improvisation scene, however, there are often hardly any young people onstage or in the audience. Younger people apparently have different tastes in listening and playing, and organizers don’t make enough of an effort with the younger scene. That means you don’t have much input outside your own bubble. And newer festivals often don’t book anyone over 30, because they aren’t aware of people outside of their bubble.

I think there should be more exchange between older and younger people.

Viola Falb: I feel like when you get older, you still live off the contacts you made earlier. It’s easier for me to tap into old acquaintances than convince new event organizers that my project is the greatest thing in the world and that they should give me one of their in-demand concert dates.

Do you think fans’ perceptions of musicians change as the artist ages?

Katharina Klement: Ha…I don’t know how many “fans” I have, but obviously approaches and understanding of (in my case contemporary) music on the part of the recipients. I have an acquaintance who admitted to me that he was very late in becoming my fan – at the beginning, he didn’t get my music at all, but age, experience, and getting used to hearing it changed his view. Thankfully, it seems to me that a lot of people become broader and more open as they grow older. But I’m sure the opposite exists as well – that many people become more narrow-minded and focused on a single direction. I think “fans” and artists grow and age together. Whatever you heard when you were young, you usually still like when you’re older.

Viola Falb: I think fans are subject to the same things as artists: they have lives with families and responsibilities as well, and they have to organize the time they have for going out, listening to music, etc., very carefully. Or their remain loyal CD buyers and concertgoers.

“I’M drawn to bigger projects now, more consistent with who I am. A gig here and a gig there isn’t attractive anymore.” – Katharina Klement

Do you feel that your age has impacted the opportunities available to you in the music industry? In what ways?

Katharina Klement: There are a lot of grant opportunities and “calls” open to or directed at composers below a certain age. I’d like to see more opportunities without age limits.

Viola Falb: I think the music business has gotten generally harder. There are a lot of acts – whether young or old, event promoters increasingly have to watch the bottom line; they can’t afford concerts where the crowds don’t line up. They like to book new things – new CDs, new bands – but making something new requires even more time and money.

Do you feel pressure to conform to current music or marketing trends? Do you feel this pressure changes with age?

Dorian Concept: Yes and no. I kind of kept up with them from the beginning of my career – when YouTube started in 2006, I uploaded a video; not long after, I had a MySpace profile. And I think that without those platforms, I wouldn’t have been able to reach as many people at that time. I’m actually something like a founding father in this age of online musicians. But at the same time, I always felt that if I was going to going to use it, I wanted to do so in a way that didn’t try to fool myself or other people – in my case, it was always a very direct, “this is how I play my instrument”. And it still is – in that sense, I never really followed trends.

Viola Falb: I notice that it’s somehow a prerequisite to service these trends, in order to reach a young audience. I also notice that there are a lot of things I can’t do, that I have to figure out: video editing, social media skills, graphic programs…but I also still need to work on learning my notation program better, my homepage needs to be updated, and I need to prepare my compositions for sale. To be honest, I don’t know where I’m supposed to find the time! I think it’s fair to say that the pressure to keep up is rising.

Katherina Klement: As soon as you apply for a grant and start marketing yourself – and you have to, as a musician – you’re under pressure, regardless of how old you are. The pressure increases as you get older, because there’s this opinion that you should be able, at some point, to live from your art. But in the freelance scene, you never earn more money just because you’re older (with the possible exception of a few “big names”). When you apply for the Staatsstipendium [a major composition award, ed.] at the age of 60, your chances are certainly not as good as when you’re 25.

I generally try not to conform to musical trends, though of course I’m influenced by my peers and the work they do. When I compose, I allow myself the luxury of not thinking about sales trends.

“I’ve never seen a concert contract that mentioned anything necessary for people with health conditions or impairments.” – Omid Darvish

Has your creative process, themes of your music or types of projects changed over time?

Viola Falb: Not really. I may have focused my style more, but I’ve basically stayed true to it.

Dorian Concept: Yes, they have! I think when I started out, I did somehow want to be part of a collective. When I used to go to events or shop for records with my friends, it was exciting to learn about this whole ecosystem of labels, collectives, and peers. And then you throw your first parties or play your first festivals – those are huge moments! That all changes as you get older. Collectives break up; a lot of creatives have to quit because they can’t make a living anymore, or people drift into other areas or genres. And everyone is concerned with different things as they age. To put it more simply: I feel like as you get older, you’re forced to become a little more self-reliant after these collective experiences – and you’re forced to reexamine why you’re doing all this.

Pamelia Stickney: My creative process and themes have definitely changed out of maturity, growing up and finding faith, which has nothing to do with age.

Katharina Klement: Yes – at a certain age, you don’t do everything you used to do. I’m more drawn to bigger projects now, more consistent with who I am – or I create them myself. A gig here and a gig there isn’t attractive anymore.

Has your approach to or position on touring and traveling changed as you have become older?

Viola Falb: Absolutely. It used to be my greatest dream to travel as an artist from one concert to the next, to see the world…now, when I imagine still having to do that – it’s not for me. When I look at some of my colleagues who are constantly traveling, I notice how far away that dream is for me now. I like traveling, but I’d rather stay in one place for longer, to enjoy a city. But usually you get in late, you have to go straight to the soundcheck, then the concert, maybe a drink afterwards, back to the hotel and leave the next day. As a mother, too, that’s practically impossible – unless the children come with you, but one of mine is in school, and who’s going to pay for the hotels and babysitter? It’s a huge issue, one that you [mica – music austria] have already examined.

Dorian Concept: Yes; I feel like I enjoy live playing more than ever before – but since I‘ve been doing it for so long now, I have reached a point where I notice in terms of traveling that I can‘t take as much as I used to. Maybe I‘m more susceptible to stress than I used to be, particularly when it comes to flying (which I avoid as much as I can, though it‘s not always possible). But here, too – it‘s just part of the equation, and I had to accept it early on: it just takes a lot out of me. Generally, though, it‘s just part of the job; it always was. And I‘ll never forget the time I flew to a festival in France with Mulatu Astatke, who was 70 at the time. I realized then: as long as I remain a musician, it‘s always going to be part of my life.

Katharina Klement: Yes, your energy doesn’t increase as you get older. Dragging that heavy suitcase full of equipment and sitting in trains for hours on end takes a toll on your health. These days, I try to travel only when it feels good, financially and time-wise.

“My creative process and themes have definitely changed out of maturity, growing up and finding faith, which has nothing to do with age.”- Pamelia Stickney

As a long-time performing artist, are there any specific health issues, injuries or other music-specific ailments that you or your peers have endured that don‘t get enough recognition, support or compensation?

Omid Darvish: Musicians constantly struggle with what I call hidden health issues, both mental and physical. Playing concerts, recording music, and practicing for years takes a heavy mental toll. Musicians endure extreme pressure for long periods, and physically, they face numerous problems due to long hours of practice and constantly being on the road.

I believe the music industry is not sensitive enough to these issues. Both the music industry and music academies often contribute to these (mental and physical) problems by imposing pressures on musicians, such as the demand for perfectionism.

I’ve never seen a concert contract that mentioned anything necessary for people with health conditions or impairments. For many years, people with health conditions or impairments have been left out of the music industry or ignored. I believe it’s time to be more aware and conscious of this issue—not only in the music industry but also in music schools, universities, and, ultimately, among the musicians themselves.

Katharina Klement: Stress manifests itself both physically and mentally, and no one can help you get it under control but yourself. Making music – in my case, particularly playing inside the piano – is physically very taxing; I‘m sure it‘s given me a chronic shoulder problem. I don‘t receive any ”compensation“ for that; I just try to keep it under control with the appropriate exercises.

Pamelia Stickney: Nobody puts a gun to an artist’s head to do what they do. So, I don’t believe that I (or any other artist or non-artist) am entitled to some sort of compensation for whatever choices I have made.

Do you think there are enough pensions and other services or systems in place to help safeguard against financial difficulties, poverty, and existential concerns, especially as one ages?

Katharina Klement: Absolutely not. I‘ll be eligible to receive a pension in the foreseeable future, but it‘s going to be so little that I‘ll only keep my head above water if I keep working. I hope I can continue my artistic work as long as possible. I like doing it, no question about it, but I can‘t absorb major expenses. An appropriate pension system for artists needs to be established, and they need to be paid better when they‘re working.

Omid Darvish: In my experience, as age increases, both physical and mental aspects require more stability. There is also external pressure to achieve greater financial stability. While musicians often create more music as they gain experience, achieving financial stability remains challenging for those of us outside the so-called mainstream music market. There needs to be a balance between all these aspects. But do I see the music industry being aware of this? No.

Every day, I see more of my colleagues playing fewer gigs and focusing their energy on other activities, like teaching music. I believe it’s essential to provide support for musicians so they can continue making music.

Omid Darvish: In my experience, as age increases, both physical and mental aspects require more stability. There is also external pressure to achieve greater financial stability. While musicians often create more music as they gain experience, achieving financial stability remains challenging for those of us outside the so-called mainstream music market. There needs to be a balance between all these aspects. But do I see the music industry being aware of this? No.

Every day, I see more of my colleagues playing fewer gigs and focusing their energy on other activities, like teaching music. I believe it’s essential to provide support for musicians so they can continue making music.

Viola Falb: I think finances can become a problem for older people, especially for freelance musicians. Even in my case – I teach a lot, but when I look at my pension account, I get dizzy: I can‘t live on that. But I can‘t count on being able to earn as much as I do at the moment with concerts and compositions – your health, the conditions, and demand all play a major role. I don‘t feel I can count on [external] support. Each person has to consider a plan for themselves…it’s going to get very interesting.

Pamelia Stickney: Compared to where I come from, Austria is very generous to its citizens and legal residents.

Do you have any role models in the industry who have successfully navigated the challenges of aging? What do you think can be learned from them?

Viola Falb: Wayne Shorter – he remained artistically impressive and was still playing concerts at a very advanced age. It would be great to be able to retain that expressive power. Benny Golson, too – at 95, I think he stopped playing. But you only have your health under control to a certain extent, and you have to be glad when you still have the capacity when you‘re old – physically and mentally.

Katharina Klement: Yes: the Rolling Stones, Martha Argerich, Eliane Radigue, Beatriz Ferreyra, Friedrich Cerha. They were all in love with their work their entire lives, and they remain – or remained – creative into old age.

Do you believe the industry needs improvement in its support for artists of all ages?  What changes do you hope to see in the music industry in the future regarding age inclusivity?

Pamelia Stickney: What kind of support can be expected of an industry that, by design, is catering to what the masses ‘like’ or give their attention span to in order to sustain itself /make a profit?

Viola Falb: Older musicians are really left to fend for themselves. I wish the music business would improve things – there are really a lot of opportunities for younger musicians: NASOM, Kick Jazz, stipends, grants…I think you could do a little bit to support older musicians as well. A lot of people have been making good music for many years. With the [Austrian] Jazz Prize as well: a lifetime achievement award would be good.

The combination of being a mother and over 40 in the music business is even harder. If I didn’t work with so many well-established ensembles that play regular concerts, like Studio Dan, plus a couple of promoters with whom I can organize concerts fairly quickly and a particularly good subvention situation with the BKA and the MA7 in Vienna, I would have been completely lost in these first two years. It would have cost me an incredible amount of money to maintain my artistic career – often more than I earned playing a concert.

I think, too, that the pool of active musicians gets smaller as you get older. It turns out not to be as fruitful as people were hoping, and they turn to other paths. But that starts as early as in college; it‘s a process that needn’t be prevented, artistically or with subventions. But the ones who have made it to a certain age – they should absolutely be supported, particularly when they‘re not able to play anymore; then, they’ve lost their ability to earn a living. But I don‘t know enough about what the SVS [social insurance agency] offers for that kind of hardship situation. At the SKE Fonds, we’ve already supported a number of cases like that.

“The combination of being a mother and over 40 in the music business is even harder.” – Viola Falb

What advice would you give to younger musicians about building a sustainable and fulfilling career in music?

Viola Falb: Try lots of things, find out what musical directions fits to you. Start your own projects early and publicize them. Work and play with your friends, gain experience – even if the money‘s not good. Use your time…and don‘t forget to learn about taxes, insurance, and subventions to make yourself financially secure.

Pamelia Stickney: Expectations pave the road to disappointment. It is not completely in your hands, no matter what field you choose to try to build a so-called ‘sustainable career.’ I’d say get your spiritual house in order so you can be content with what you have, accept what you cannot control (including if it means not being able to get by on making art alone), and not let ego problems like envy, greed, and fear of aging and death rule your life.

Katharina Klement: Pragmatic answer: don‘t exploit yourself – always strive for good pay and good contracts. Think early about organizing a pension; avoid limited contracts as much as possible. The artistic answer: always do what you find artistically compelling; look within yourself to find out what you want and what you‘re capable of. Stay the course, even if things aren‘t going well. Stay open and curious; don‘t view success as the only measure of value.

Dorian Concept: Hmm, difficult. Unfortunately, I don‘t think there‘s any formula for a sustainable career – and in many cases, I think there‘s a lot of luck involved. But aside from career-oriented thinking: the thing that keeps me going is curiosity; I think it‘s essential to maintain that. I would like to have released more music; looking back, there are very large gaps between my albums. So, staying on track…keep working, keep releasing, keep playing – staying in the game, I think, is something that people also notice. I don‘t mean that so much in the sense of ”5 social media posts per week“, but just for yourself – keep tending the garden that allows you to be creative, lets you want to stay. And patience – think in long periods of time. And don‘t forget: music is something you do; it‘s not who you are!

Please note: The artists presented here did not take part in the interview together. The editor has compiled their individual responses into a joint article.

Original German responses translated by Philip Yaeger.

All “30 over 30” articles can be found here.

Arianna Alfreds

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